Andrew
I am anxious to hear responses from you to the questions I, and many others are asking. I believe it is important for the record to be set straight.
Wouldn't you say it was rather childish on your part to try to correct my spelling? I did NOT use the word "behooved", I used behoove (without the 'd') and, if you check the dictionary, you will find that both spellings are correct.
Mr Moore
You have, apparently, decided NOT to respond to, not only my question of August 2nd, but those of A.H. Muir & possibly many others who are questioning the legality of your claim to Chief of the Muir Clan. Is this because you cannot answer our questions? Or is it because you are arrogant enough that you think you don't have to?
There are many of we Muirs who wish to have clarification of what has led you to believe you are head of the Muir Clan? Simply put, if indeed, you do have an official standing with the Lord Lyons office in Edinburgh, then it would behoove you to set us all straight, not only by replying to our questions but also by publicly publishing the documentation which leads you to think you hold this position.
Firstly, let me say that it was a disappointment that you did not make the time to come along to the Gathering in July. I and others found it extraordinary that you did not do so, and are left with the question of why you did not do so.
Secondly, you are currently referred to as "Clan Chief" on this website, and I note that Mrs Pettit asks by what procedure you arrived in that apparent position. I am not aware that you have given her a reply yet.
To clarify the position, I have been in touch with the Lord Lyon's office and they have replied with the points made below, which I have copied from my message on this site to Mr Kurt Moore.
It is clear from what they say that you have no standing outside of the "Clann Muir" society, and whilst you are quite entitled to hold any title you wish within that society, you are not entitled to call yourself "Clan Chief" of the Muir clan/family in Scotland or elswhere. This should be corrected immediately.
I welcome any clarification as to what process you have been through with the Lord Lyon's office: or indeed are going through now, as they are unaware of who you are. It may be that a mistake has been made somewhere, but the Lord Lyon by definition does not make mistakes.
Please explain what has gone on in the past which leads you to believe you have a claim on the title "Clan Chief"?
At 4:21pm on August 13, 2009, A.H. Muir said…Dear Kurt
It is a shame you have not replied to my last message, but nevertheless I can report that I have made progress in establishing the status of Mr Andrew Moore, which leaves me confused as to what procedures you have gone through in connection with the Lord Lyon’s court.
The Lord Lyon’s office informs me that they have no prior knowledge of the Clann Muir organisation or its website. They state that they “do not know on what basis they describe themselves in the website as “official” or have recognised Andrew Moore as their “commander” or “head of the House of Muir”. The office then go on to explain that most Mores and Moores would be of English and Irish descent, and unrelated to Scottish Muirs. Further, they say:
“In the past a Clan Chief or a Representer of a name or family has been the person recognised by the Lord Lyon as being in right of the undifferenced arms of the name. I am not aware that there is any generally recognised Representer of the family of Mure/Muir.If such is to be found, it should be from among the descendants of the known Scottish landed families of Mure/Muir”.
Could you inform me of the procedures you as an organisation went through previously, which have led you to believe that Mr Andrew Moore might have a claim of some sort to lead the “Clan Muir”?
If no recognised procedure in connection with the Lord Lyon’s Court has been carried through, then it is misleading for Mr Andrew Moore to be addressed as “Chief “ on the Clann Muir website and I think it would be right to make this clear on the website.
Mr Moore,
I am curious to find out how it came to pass that you are the CLAN CHIEF? Were you voted into your position by members of the Muir Clan? If not, how was it determined that you, particularly, were the one Muir to head the Clan?
I would appreciate a response.
Maureen Muir Pettit
Good morning. Charles from Canada spent most of the day with us, and was given a passport from another Muir so that he could participate in the parade. We should have an e-mail list from the day to pass around soon, and Charles' information will be included. As for whisky, outside alcohol was not permitted. That said, the organisers did bring around a fine bottle of Talisker to each tent, so the Muirs in attendance were indeed offered a wee dram (some happily having more than one, including myself!). A Muir from Washington State, Lucian, brought some small tokens of appreciation for you, the Clan Chief. If you could please send me you mailing address, I will post these to you. D.
Hello -- my e-mail address is: dosgeos@hotmail.com
I should be set to pick up August's passport -- I called the ticket office today, and they were going to put my name against her passport. Do I need to pick up anything from the box office for the tent-i.e. do I need to mention that I am filling in for Cheryl? I'll see about having whisky at the booth -- the rules state that no one can bring in alcohol, however I will ask if I can do so for the clan tent. Even if I can, it may be a bit of a struggle to get a case in the morning...I'll see. Anything else? Any events/functions that need performed on behalf of the Clan? I am trying to get signal on my mobile, so e-mail may be best. P.S. I did have extra passport photos, so will bring one along! D.
Andrew, Please let me know what I need to do for the tent -- will someone bring items to display? Also, could you please let me know what I need to do to pick up August's Passport -- without some prior approval, I doubt that they will give it to me...probably needs a Chief's approval :)
Train and room are booked. I arrive Edinburgh 09:40 tomorrow morning...will drop off my luggage, make a quick changeover and head directly to pick up the passport and then to the clan tent. I'm yours all day, and leave Sunday morning 09:10 back to Aberdeen. I hope this helps, and am really looking forward to a great (and hopefully dry) day! Douglas
Chief Andrew,
There is a paid for Passport waiting to be picked up under the name August Flohr at the Gathering 2009 office.(Clann Muir)
Just tell them you have a brother picking it up for the Clan Muir and her.
Chief Andrew, can you write you a letter of use in her place.
and call them to give them instructions and the service change from her to the brother to use?
Hi, Andrew -- I apologise for the picture, still working out how to get more than my mid-section to show up! I am very sorry to hear about the accident -- glad to hear that your daughter is doing well.
I am happy to help at the tent, but have not bought a ticket or arranged for accommodation. If I can figure out a ticket (would have preferred to have done the passport, but looks like those are no longer available), then maybe I can just pop down and back from Aberdeen on the train, and avoid the unlikely scenario of finding lodging at this late date. I'll dig into this further tomorrow morning. Kind Regards, Douglas
A CAR CAN BE REPLACED......I'M GLAD THAT CHERYL IS IN RELATIVE GOOD CONDITION...WHIPLASH IS A NASTY THING TO HAVE AND I WILL PRAY FOR HER...MY WIFE CATHERINE (MCNEELEY) MOORE WAS IN A WRECK AND HAD TO HAVE "NECK FUSION"...I ASK LORI B. TO CONTACT DOUGLAS MOORE....I AM AWARE OF HRH'S HAVING TWO OR THREE TITLES......MABEY HE AND CAMILLA WILL GO BY THE TENT ...
PLEASE KEEP ME UP ON CHERYL'S CONDITION ....... JOHN
Hi Chief Andrew
Douglas Scott Moore, who is one Our Scottish Muirs, has a intrest in helping out at the Gather in Edinbrough...setting at the tent and such. I thought Sir that you might give him a shout an a bit of assistance. Thank You.... John
In my early clan days I missed the clan chief. Now that you're able to be present I'm glad, and welcome you, though the call is coming from New Zealand so far away. You must be a very busy soul, running a fish and chip business, and also a fishing boat. I did a few years in the same shop business and know well the hard long hours that it needs. Greetings Chief Andrew. Looking forward to keeping in touch.
By the time I was of 4 years of age, I was taught to curtsey before a nobel, an official, and any one of distinguished standing and of senior social rank.
I so position myself as such and humbly accept your most gracious gift.
You have given my life, my ancestors a blessed place in our Clann Muirs history and heritage.
I will do my very best to be worthy of this nobel honor.
In humble appreciation and a willingness to serve,
Though we are half a world apart, we are joined by the genetic bloodline we share. I am so happy you have reconnected with all of us through this website. I look forward to meeting you the next time I come to Scotland.
My efforts on behalf of the clan are slowly coming to fruition, as I have nearly completed my historical analysis of the ancient roots of our family heritage. I will send it to you for your review before posting it on the website.
My own family came from Hamilton, and emigrated to the U.S. in 1851. Do you know any "single-O" Mores in Scotland? At this point I can only dream of connecting with direct relatives.
Sorry for the belated hello, for this is the first time in a while that I have access to internet. Congrats on your marriage and hope all is well with you and yours. It's very nice to see you on here and I hope at a time when we are bothon we can converse.
Yours in Service,
Michael E. Moore
Dear Mr Moore,
As the Head of House, Our Clan Chief, I would appreciate if you could assist me.
I am slighly confused, and I would really appreciate if you could clarify something for me.
On the official Clan Muir website, the Clan motto on the buckle badge reads, "DURUM PATENTIA FRANGO", however, my understanding is that our motto is "DURUM PATIENTIA FRANGO".
Please could you explain my misunderstanding regarding the spelling of PATENTIA/PATIENTIA.
I have been trying unsuccessfully to establish contact through the official Clan Muir website.
I have my messages to clanmuir@hotmail.com rejected.
Is this the correct correspondence address, or should I use an alternative?
Chief Andrew,
At school I tried learning the clarinet which wasn’t bad, the guitar which I never really got the hang of and when I was a wee boy, the organ and even violin.
The only instrument I really got, was the pipes, which I started learning a bit late at about 14 years old. I took about 20 years off after I turned 18 and took up playing again about 4 years ago. I’ve worked my backside off to get back into it, I’ll never win The Bratach Gorm but I do play competitively with a grade three band here.
Anyway I am so very pleased and honoured that you are available to chat from time to time with your Clansmen here on this wonderful forum that Jan Muir has developed. Jan is a wonderful person and a true lady whom we are blessed to have as a part of our world wide family.
I feel that your presence here on the site in you capacity as Clan Chief and Head of the House of MUIR, will add a new dimension and even greater breadth and direction into the future.
Chapter XVI. - Cross the Elbow—What is good for John is god for you—Cross High River—Meet genuine son of Erin —Strike for upper trail along the Mountains— Arrive at Plegan agency.
The Clann That Will Not Die
Andrew Moore - Clan Chief's Comments
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I am anxious to hear responses from you to the questions I, and many others are asking. I believe it is important for the record to be set straight.
Wouldn't you say it was rather childish on your part to try to correct my spelling? I did NOT use the word "behooved", I used behoove (without the 'd') and, if you check the dictionary, you will find that both spellings are correct.
You have, apparently, decided NOT to respond to, not only my question of August 2nd, but those of A.H. Muir & possibly many others who are questioning the legality of your claim to Chief of the Muir Clan. Is this because you cannot answer our questions? Or is it because you are arrogant enough that you think you don't have to?
There are many of we Muirs who wish to have clarification of what has led you to believe you are head of the Muir Clan? Simply put, if indeed, you do have an official standing with the Lord Lyons office in Edinburgh, then it would behoove you to set us all straight, not only by replying to our questions but also by publicly publishing the documentation which leads you to think you hold this position.
Maureen Muir Pettit
Firstly, let me say that it was a disappointment that you did not make the time to come along to the Gathering in July. I and others found it extraordinary that you did not do so, and are left with the question of why you did not do so.
Secondly, you are currently referred to as "Clan Chief" on this website, and I note that Mrs Pettit asks by what procedure you arrived in that apparent position. I am not aware that you have given her a reply yet.
To clarify the position, I have been in touch with the Lord Lyon's office and they have replied with the points made below, which I have copied from my message on this site to Mr Kurt Moore.
It is clear from what they say that you have no standing outside of the "Clann Muir" society, and whilst you are quite entitled to hold any title you wish within that society, you are not entitled to call yourself "Clan Chief" of the Muir clan/family in Scotland or elswhere. This should be corrected immediately.
I welcome any clarification as to what process you have been through with the Lord Lyon's office: or indeed are going through now, as they are unaware of who you are. It may be that a mistake has been made somewhere, but the Lord Lyon by definition does not make mistakes.
Please explain what has gone on in the past which leads you to believe you have a claim on the title "Clan Chief"?
At 4:21pm on August 13, 2009, A.H. Muir said…Dear Kurt
It is a shame you have not replied to my last message, but nevertheless I can report that I have made progress in establishing the status of Mr Andrew Moore, which leaves me confused as to what procedures you have gone through in connection with the Lord Lyon’s court.
The Lord Lyon’s office informs me that they have no prior knowledge of the Clann Muir organisation or its website. They state that they “do not know on what basis they describe themselves in the website as “official” or have recognised Andrew Moore as their “commander” or “head of the House of Muir”. The office then go on to explain that most Mores and Moores would be of English and Irish descent, and unrelated to Scottish Muirs. Further, they say:
“In the past a Clan Chief or a Representer of a name or family has been the person recognised by the Lord Lyon as being in right of the undifferenced arms of the name. I am not aware that there is any generally recognised Representer of the family of Mure/Muir.If such is to be found, it should be from among the descendants of the known Scottish landed families of Mure/Muir”.
Could you inform me of the procedures you as an organisation went through previously, which have led you to believe that Mr Andrew Moore might have a claim of some sort to lead the “Clan Muir”?
If no recognised procedure in connection with the Lord Lyon’s Court has been carried through, then it is misleading for Mr Andrew Moore to be addressed as “Chief “ on the Clann Muir website and I think it would be right to make this clear on the website.
I am curious to find out how it came to pass that you are the CLAN CHIEF? Were you voted into your position by members of the Muir Clan? If not, how was it determined that you, particularly, were the one Muir to head the Clan?
I would appreciate a response.
Maureen Muir Pettit
I should be set to pick up August's passport -- I called the ticket office today, and they were going to put my name against her passport. Do I need to pick up anything from the box office for the tent-i.e. do I need to mention that I am filling in for Cheryl? I'll see about having whisky at the booth -- the rules state that no one can bring in alcohol, however I will ask if I can do so for the clan tent. Even if I can, it may be a bit of a struggle to get a case in the morning...I'll see. Anything else? Any events/functions that need performed on behalf of the Clan? I am trying to get signal on my mobile, so e-mail may be best. P.S. I did have extra passport photos, so will bring one along! D.
Regards, Douglas
There is a paid for Passport waiting to be picked up under the name August Flohr at the Gathering 2009 office.(Clann Muir)
Just tell them you have a brother picking it up for the Clan Muir and her.
Chief Andrew, can you write you a letter of use in her place.
and call them to give them instructions and the service change from her to the brother to use?
Silante,
Jann
I am happy to help at the tent, but have not bought a ticket or arranged for accommodation. If I can figure out a ticket (would have preferred to have done the passport, but looks like those are no longer available), then maybe I can just pop down and back from Aberdeen on the train, and avoid the unlikely scenario of finding lodging at this late date. I'll dig into this further tomorrow morning. Kind Regards, Douglas
PLEASE KEEP ME UP ON CHERYL'S CONDITION ....... JOHN
Douglas Scott Moore, who is one Our Scottish Muirs, has a intrest in helping out at the Gather in Edinbrough...setting at the tent and such. I thought Sir that you might give him a shout an a bit of assistance. Thank You.... John
By the time I was of 4 years of age, I was taught to curtsey before a nobel, an official, and any one of distinguished standing and of senior social rank.
I so position myself as such and humbly accept your most gracious gift.
You have given my life, my ancestors a blessed place in our Clann Muirs history and heritage.
I will do my very best to be worthy of this nobel honor.
In humble appreciation and a willingness to serve,
Jann Muir
Guardian Clann Muir
Though we are half a world apart, we are joined by the genetic bloodline we share. I am so happy you have reconnected with all of us through this website. I look forward to meeting you the next time I come to Scotland.
My efforts on behalf of the clan are slowly coming to fruition, as I have nearly completed my historical analysis of the ancient roots of our family heritage. I will send it to you for your review before posting it on the website.
My own family came from Hamilton, and emigrated to the U.S. in 1851. Do you know any "single-O" Mores in Scotland? At this point I can only dream of connecting with direct relatives.
Warm regards,
Robert "MacBear" More
Please for the belated welcome! Congratulations on your wedding. Hope you have a WONDERFUL weekend!
Sorry for the belated hello, for this is the first time in a while that I have access to internet. Congrats on your marriage and hope all is well with you and yours. It's very nice to see you on here and I hope at a time when we are bothon we can converse.
Yours in Service,
Michael E. Moore
As the Head of House, Our Clan Chief, I would appreciate if you could assist me.
I am slighly confused, and I would really appreciate if you could clarify something for me.
On the official Clan Muir website, the Clan motto on the buckle badge reads, "DURUM PATENTIA FRANGO", however, my understanding is that our motto is "DURUM PATIENTIA FRANGO".
Please could you explain my misunderstanding regarding the spelling of PATENTIA/PATIENTIA.
I have been trying unsuccessfully to establish contact through the official Clan Muir website.
I have my messages to clanmuir@hotmail.com rejected.
Is this the correct correspondence address, or should I use an alternative?
I do look forward to your reply.
Here's tae us!
Ken Muir
00420 728 511 246
At school I tried learning the clarinet which wasn’t bad, the guitar which I never really got the hang of and when I was a wee boy, the organ and even violin.
The only instrument I really got, was the pipes, which I started learning a bit late at about 14 years old. I took about 20 years off after I turned 18 and took up playing again about 4 years ago. I’ve worked my backside off to get back into it, I’ll never win The Bratach Gorm but I do play competitively with a grade three band here.
Anyway I am so very pleased and honoured that you are available to chat from time to time with your Clansmen here on this wonderful forum that Jan Muir has developed. Jan is a wonderful person and a true lady whom we are blessed to have as a part of our world wide family.
I feel that your presence here on the site in you capacity as Clan Chief and Head of the House of MUIR, will add a new dimension and even greater breadth and direction into the future.
All the best,
Victor
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