The Clann That Will Not Die
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Kurt Moore Clan Guardian
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Kurt Moore Clan Guardian's Discussions
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Started this discussion. Last reply by John L. Moore Sr ESQ Sep 9.
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Started this discussion. Last reply by John L. Moore Sr ESQ Jun 17.
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Ronald, James
Baillie, Historian, Stonemason and Housing Developer in Stirling.Songs of Lowland Scotland
Added Pages 506 - 533.Johnny Gibb Of Gushetneuk
Chapter IX - Pedagogical and Chapter X - Benjie's Classical Studies.Recounting Blessings
John has sent in chapters 72 and 73 of this account.Writings of Albert Morris
Article 77 - Piquant persiflage made to a secret, age-old recipe.Scotland's Story
Chapter XX. Alexander III. - How the Little King was Crowned and Married.The United States of America: A History
CHAPTER XV. THE WAR WITH GREAT BRITAIN.In the days of the Red River Rebellion
Chapter XIX. - Welcome at Fort Pitt—Flat-sleds and snow-shoes— - Norris and party arrive—A unique incident—On to Victoria—Sandy accompanies us—Order of march— Little Bob clear grit—A friendly French half-breed —Arrive at Victoria—David a proud father—A run to Edmonton and Pigeon Lake—A welcome visit from father—Christmas at Edmonton—Home at last—Unique bridal tour—My wife a heroine— Au revoir. And this completes this book.Sense O' Eemur
A new poem in the Doric from John Henderson.Agriculture
I've updated our Agriculture section to add a few books about agriculture as well as crofting and crofters.Badge
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Never mind, I see Mark Moore is. Should I contact him about taking over responsibility for our Clan tent at the Stone Mountain Highland Games?
Who's our convener for Georgia?
(well, I AM a Moore!)
Best regards,
Jim
What I was asking you, is do you have anything in writing from this Mrs Rae, or indeed from Andrew Moore, which they should have received from the Lord Lyon to formally acknowledge that an approach had been made to him? If they have no acknowledgement, then I cannot see that they have done anything. If you have been "told" that some action had been taken, it appears to me that this means absolutely nothing.
I am not necessarily saying that you might have been deliberately misled, but if the Lord Lyon had embarked on some kind of procedure with your Scottish contacts, he would ONLY have done so by letter...and, of course, this would have been duly noted by his office for future action. The fact that the Lord Lyon's office can find nothing indicates that no procedures have been formally commenced.
As you have lost contact with Mrs Rae some years ago, you are left it seems with Andrew Moore to inform you of what has gone on over here all those years ago. As I understand it, the gentleman concerned has not been given to keeping in touch with you, and given recent events one might be entitled to question his viability.
It is a shame you have not replied to my last message, but nevertheless I can report that I have made progress in establishing the status of Mr Andrew Moore, which leaves me confused as to what procedures you have gone through in connection with the Lord Lyon’s court.
The Lord Lyon’s office informs me that they have no prior knowledge of the Clann Muir organisation or its website. They state that they “do not know on what basis they describe themselves in the website as “official” or have recognised Andrew Moore as their “commander” or “head of the House of Muir”. The office then go on to explain that most Mores and Moores would be of English and Irish descent, and unrelated to Scottish Muirs. Further, they say:
“In the past a Clan Chief or a Representer of a name or family has been the person recognised by the Lord Lyon as being in right of the undifferenced arms of the name. I am not aare that there is any generally recognised Representer of the family of Mure/Muir.If such is to be found, it should be from among the descendants of the known Scottish landed families of Mure/Muir”.
Could you inform me of the procedures you as an organisation went through previously, which have led you to believe that Mr Andrew Moore might have a claim of some sort to lead the “Clan Muir”?
If no recognised procedure in connection with the Lord Lyon’s Court has been carried through, then it is misleading for Mr Andrew Moore to be addressed as “Chief “ on the Clann Muir website and I think it would be right to make this clear on the website.
Allan.H.Muir
Thank you for responding clearly and speedily. This has clarified the situation now for me, and I am sure for a few others.
As you are probably aware, there has been some concern here in Scotland that we as a Clan appeared to have a "Chief", who seems to have been elected only by those with our name in America (you do not say how many resident Scots participated in the election process). The fact that there was a website some years ago when you first commenced this process does not mean that automatically all Muirs/Moores/Mores etc will have had access to that site, or indeed have known about it. Also, you have not placed any clear indication on the site of an election process and what exactly that process was for.
From what you say, Andrew Moore is not in any way a "Chief", as you say, but merely the Head of your Society. There is, however, a very misleading content to communications and forms of address, whereby Andrew Moore is now referred to as "Chief Moore", and I think all would agree that such terminology is misleading in the wider context and would lead those who first arrive to view your website to believe that Mr Moore is ACTUALLY the Clan Chief. This is certainly the impression we have gained.
I think a first step to being more open about this situation would be to publish in open forum (in fact, to highlight) what you have replied to me. Most observers might think that an election, which appears not to have included any resident Scots, and to have had only one applicant is not a realistic election for a Clan Chief; but if it was only for your Society Head, that is fine. It should be made 100% clear, however, to all.
There are clearly laid down guidelines set by the Lord Lyon for electing a Chief of Clan. This involves Scottish Landowners and Scottish Armigers coming together in a DerbhFine to elect a Clan Chief in a process supervised by the Lord Lyon's representative. This is stipulated on the Lord Lyon's website.
Currently, I am in contact with the Lord Lyons office to clarify this further.
I admire greatly what you and Jann Muir have achieved here, and your passion is clear for all to see, as is the case with many American and other nationality members of your Society. It is not easy to run a website, as Jann does, and congratulations to her for that. I am also aware of a thriving Highland Games scene over there, despite the huge distances between.
What the Gathering has done over here in our small country is to raise awareness of how we have permitted our Clan system to decline somewhat. Yes, it is passe in a sense, but as Scotland now fights to throw of the apathy of 250 years of not having to make her own decisions (for some a comfortable state of affairs), the Clan system is important again in helping to establish our identity and in drawing people together.
However...there are rules and regulations laid down by the Lord Lyon's Office and we must observe them, as they are there for a good reason.
May I just comment on the Gathering tent:
Bravo for getting one, but where were any of your representatives? Where were your pamphlets and information sheets? Where was your decoration for the tent?
I offered my services to your Society earlier this year (see my messages below), but heard nothing from you. Had we known that the tent was to be so embarrassing, we could have brought all these things with us from Aberdeen and done a damn good job. Why did you find yourselves drawing on Douglas Moore’s good nature at the last minute as you did? I note now that others over here also offered to assist.
As it was, my wife and I arrived on Saturday morning at the tent, to find a lonely Douglas wondering exactly what he was to do. Charles Chalmers arrived, too, and was a help, albeit not very knowledgeable about our history. We stayed with the tent all Saturday (to our detriment, as we could not get around to see much of the Games); but, of course, when we arrived on Sunday we were the ones who had to stay to represent the Muir name again all day, as nobody else was there. I note that we have had no mention on your website at all in this respect
I know it is a long way to come and expensive for tickets, but I am astonished that money could be spent on these things only for no one to come over in the end.
Finally, on this subject, where was your Head of House? I have read a message on your site from Mr Moore saying he could not make it to the Gathering as he was “busy”. Busy? This gathering of the Clans saw the biggest assemblage of Clans and Clan Chiefs ever. Old and young Chiefs from around the world made the effort to come to the event: to interface with their Clan and to represent it to the general public: to march proudly ahead of their Clan up the Royal Mile…something which may not ever happen again.
And Mr Moore, the Head of House was too “busy” with his fish restaurant?
Not good enough, by a long chalk, and I hope you will be asking more searching questions of him yourselves as to why he was not there.
There may be parts of this message which are critical, but be assured I do feel you and your close circle are to be congratulated on what you have achieved thus far; but do not forget that the Clan resides here in its native land, and you should recognise that many here feel that there has not been sufficient effort to make contact with home-based Muirs, who feel left out of your processes to date.
Yours sincerely
Allan Muir
" I believe you will find that Andrew Moore does not have the right to claim the Muir of Rowallan arms as his own, as arms are matriculated only to the named applicant who originally petitioned the Lord Lyon of the time. If he wished to hold arms he would have to petition in his own right, but the Muir of Rowallan arms can only be claimed by that family. It may be that the arms could be claimed as representing the officially accredited Clan Muir, but not an individual whether it is Andrew Moore or anyone else. It is worthwhile consulting the current Lord Lyon in Edinburgh in order to be clear in your own minds as to the actual situation.
Is Mr Moore now the full Chief of the Clan Muir as accredited by the Lord Lyon, or is he "Chief Elect" at this time? Could you also tell me what procedures have been gone through to get to this stage and when?"
I hope you can help.
Regards
A.Muir
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